There are all sorts of other things that don't show up on a spec sheet so easily that Framework isn't competitive on.
It has a diving board trackpad, significantly worse speakers, no zonal dimming on the display (comparing to MacBook Pro, which higher end specs of the Framework cost as much as), general poor body rigidity, an aggressive fan curve that ramps up audibly on short loads (the Air doesn't even have a fan and the Pro can handle a couple mins of all-core 100% load without becoming audible), etc etc.
As much as I dislike Apple's business practices it's undeniable that other vendors are generally selling significantly cheaper feeling devices at the same price point. These are not niche things, you feel the cheapness on the Framework with every touchpad click, short bursty CPU task, HDR video, audio playback, heck even picking it up off the desk.
Trackpad isn’t as good, true. But it’s not a bad trackpad, either, and I would counter that other operating systems that aren’t macOS support external normal mice a lot better. On macOS I needed to install a separate paid program (Smooze Pro) to make the scroll wheel of an external mouse normal for gaming or other purposes. I would be very interested to try the haptic trackpad on the Lenovo ThinkPad X9 15 Aura Edition.
macOS assumes you’re using a trackpad to a fault, to the point where I prefer a trackpad on macOS desktop systems. That’s an operating system choice that a conspiracy theorist might tell you is Apple’s way of artificially differentiating their patent-protected trackpad hardware products. If Apple just used a normal mouse and designed the OS around it like everyone else they couldn’t sell you the advantage of their fancy trackpad, since we all know a dedicated mouse is more precise and quick, so that situation is yet another crazy expensive vendor lock-in accessory along with the Touch ID keyboard. Over $300 if you buy both for your desk setup!
Also remember that this is a laptop for programming…how often am I using my mouse?
Worse speakers, this is true, though it’s improved by installing Easy Effects and running a Framework profile. I use my AirPods Pro 3 on the Framework and they work great with it. MacBook speakers sound really good but they are still laptop speakers.
I don’t agree that the Framework body rigidity is poor. Do you own one or are you just assuming it’s poor? It’s very comparable to a MacBook, the screen has slightly more flex but the keyboard deck and core system is almost identically rigid.
Zonal dimming is only available on the MacBook Pro models that cost $600 more than my Framework, which doesn’t include the cost of upgrading them to equivalent 2TB/32GB configuration. So realistically, for my needs I would have had to spend double to get zonal dimming, which doesn’t benefit my programming work at all, though it would presumably benefit gaming. But gaming is my secondary use case.
Also, if Framework ever makes a micro-LED screen in the future, I’ll be able to replace it for a very reasonable cost. They have already released a display upgrade and surely will upgrade it again in the future as more panels become available.
You can customize the fan curve of a Framework! But the fan noise was never a consideration of mine. I’m not an audio producer.
You’re saying I’m constantly burdened by this computer but you’re not really considering how I’m using the laptop. I don’t care much for HDR content and barely watch television, fan noise hasn’t been an issue, this laptop is almost a full pound less heavy than my previous 14” MacBook Pro and almost identical in weight to a MacBook Air, so I don’t understand how picking it up is a worse experience.
You didn’t even mention the weak webcam on the Framework! It sucks! But I don’t use it, just like I didn’t use my MacBook webcam. I’m a programmer remember? I don’t go on camera. That’s for sales bros. FaceTime on iPhone is better than the MacBook anyway.
> Also remember that this is a laptop for programming…how often am I using my mouse?
All the time?
Some of us have embraced IDE and graphical tooling in desktop systems since the 1990, after computers with desktop environments became affordable and we weren't stuck with text only interfaces.
I use a graphical IDE. That still means my hands are on the keyboard 90% of the time. Graphical IDEs still use a lot of keyboard shortcuts.
And like I said, the trackpad isn’t bad, it’s just not the world’s best trackpad.
To reiterate further, macOS demands you use the trackpad for gestures that aren’t demanded in other operating systems. They want you to buy their $150 trackpad even though you’re sitting at a desk and could easily use a $20-50 third party mouse.
I also am a programmer, and I care about all of these things on my laptop. I used my trackpad to click reply on this webpage, that's not a rare thing!
If you ever have a meeting where multiple people huddle around a laptop, that uses speakers, webcam, and microphone, and the MacBook does so much better in that scenario. We have interrupted meetings to swap from a Framework 16 (old CTO's laptop) to my MacBook Pro because participants simply couldn't hear those of us slightly further away from the laptop!
Zonal dimming is an advantage whenever you have black areas on the screen, and good fan tuning is an advantage if you want to compile some changes during a meeting without thinking "this task will turn my laptop into a jet engine and distract everyone else".
If you don't care about these things, then you can find way cheaper devices than the Framework that are cost competitive on core specs. Let's get some Framework pricing as a datum, Framework will sell me the AI 350 and 2.8K display for $1939CAD, it has no RAM, no SSD, no charger, no ports... if I add 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD, charger, and 2xUSB-C, 1xHDMI, 1xUSB-A, we're looking at $2403CAD.
If I don't care about the less measurable components, why would I not buy something like this $400USD (~$550CAD) laptop [1] another poster in this thread found which also has an AI 350, 16GB RAM, and a 512GB SSD? I can buy four of these laptops for the price of the Framework and still have some cash left over! If I need more RAM I'm sure I can find a similarly cheapo laptop with a SODIMM by actually googling myself.
I think the reality is both you and I do care about these other parts, just maybe with a different minimum acceptable quality. But even inside PC land Framework is not competitive. Higher-end X1 Carbons have haptic trackpads at the same price point as Framework is offering diving boards. Across the market there are OLEDs for less money than Framework is charging for LCDs.
Personally, I don't care about trackpad alone so much, merely that the pointing device situation be acceptable. When programming, I type a lot and then do a few small mouse actions (e.g. expand some segment on a docs webpage, or mouse around some GUI to test the feature I have been building out). With a haptic trackpad, I can move my thumb from the spacebar to the top of the trackpad which is just below it and do my mouse actions without significant hand movement. This is not possible with a diving board design as the top of the trackpad is not clickable. A pointing stick is absolutely an acceptable solution to this problem, but Framework also does not offer those, again despite price-competitive offerings from, say, Lenovo offering it.
Let's briefly look at Lenovo's website. I can spec out a ThinkPad P14s Gen 6 here in Canada from Lenovo's website [2] with a 120Hz OLED screen, trackpoint, Ryzen AI 350, 1x16GB SODIMM and 512GB NVMe for $1529CAD, that's a fully working computer for less than the barebones Framework, with a better display and pointing device situation! I can use the empty second SODIMM port with a single 48GB stick and get 64GB, and stick the NVMe in an external enclosure to use as an external SSD, and deck it out with whatever market-rate drive and RAM I can get.
The Framework is broadly uncompetitive even if you won't consider a MacBook.
Like I said, Framework 13 trackpad isn’t bad, it’s just not the best in the world. It’s not any worse than the traditional trackpads that are on Lenovo systems (but I’d love to try the haptic one on the X9 Aura Edition).
This $2400 CAD price point is pure fantasy to me because that’s not what I paid. I paid $800 for a DIY system then about $200 or $300 for RAM and storage (USD).
The ThinkPad P14 you specced out is not significantly more competitive. I’ll use my US website prices to compare. The base model starts at $1044. It comes with a Ryzen AI 340 which is a far worse chip for integrated graphics than my 7640u, it’s like 60% of the speed of the 7640u graphics. The display in that model is the base model display, not a 120Hz OLED, similar specs to the Framework. You have to add $10 for fingerprint reader then I have to still buy a new stick of RAM and a bigger SSD.
I also tried a Lenovo T14 in store and felt like it had way too much deck flex. I had no idea if the P series is the same but Lenovo felt plasticky. Framework is an aluminum chassis and the keyboard deck flex is about as good as it gets before you sign your life away to Apple.
The $500 cheapo spec laptops aren’t as nice as the Framework! I swear FW haters just insist that the hardware quality is budget tier and it must suck since it’s modular and that it’s not a premium-class system. But that is just not true. The Lenovo T14 felt cheap in comparison. If I get a $500 cheapo laptop I’m getting even more plastic and flex.
The ThinkPad T14 keyboard was not good enough for me. The Framework 13 has better keyboard. I like it better than my previous MacBook Pro! A $500 cheapo laptop isn’t going to satisfy me there.
In terms of Linux support, Framework is premium. The company itself focuses on it more than Lenovo. Hardware firmware gets updated automatically within Linux, and there’s a dedicated community surrounding it, which you won’t get on some random $500 HP laptop.
Maybe Lenovo offers an equivalent value or sometimes even a better value when there’s a sale. For my needs Apple couldn’t even get close to the kind of price I paid for what I got.
One more sidenote, you brought up buying the power supply separate, which I didn’t have to do because I already own an Anker Prime charger that I’ve used with my previous MacBook for being a superior travel solution compared to OEM. My monitor on my desk already provides USB-C PD. So really, if I buy a laptop that includes one it’s just e-waste that I don’t need.
This is not really anything new, back in AIM and SMS messaging days, people would type "wuu2" or "whats up" to a friend, but to express the same idea in an email, you would probably be sending some variant of "What are you up to?"
There is massively different subtext between the two. Autocapitalization and autocorrect represents a limit on the subtextual bandwidth you can communicate along with a message. Restrictions on subtextual bandwith are not ideal when your generation relies on text-based communication for evermore intimate interactions - that "whats up" message might be the start of you asking someone out on a date, I don't want it formatted the same way as a message I would send my boss.
I feel like this problem is better in the UK than in North America.
For starters, there is higher market penetration for better headlight technology, particularly ADB (adaptive driving beam). North American road safety regulations have made it very difficult to get this technology into cars, whereas in Europe it is reasonably widespread. Even rental cars I have had in the UK have this technology- most recently a Mazda3 which had a very good implementation of it, I could drive through the countryside with high-beams on constantly, and you could see the car quickly dim the beam facing towards oncoming traffic if any came around a bend. These are not high-end cars; I have rented cars with a manual transmission and cloth seats yet better headlights than the fanciest S-class in North America.
There is also less variation in vehicle size, and better emphasis on road safety testing. In Canada I often encounter lifted pickup trucks, which changes the alignment of factory lighting, not to mention the lights on these are often aftermarket anyway and usually installed without any thought for alignment. British pickup trucks are rarer, smaller, and would fail their yearly MOT for having improper headlamp aim.
The problem with headlight brightness has mostly stemmed from cars having brighter headlights. I love technology, but if I had to choose between reducing light output, vs switching to harder-to repair, more expensive, less reliable computer-powered headlights, I'd prefer the former.
When I drive cars with old headlights, they are clearly inferior to the point of feeling nearly dangerous in some situations. I would also not call modern lights less reliable, although I am sure it is more expensive to repair modern lighting technology.
In a North American city where there is overhead lighting and the streets are a mile wide, sure, I could probably turn the lights off even and be totally fine.
In the middle of the British countryside on a single-track road that has hedges on either side, not enough space for cars in the oncoming direction to pass me, a 60mph speed limit, during a rainstorm? I want the nice lights.
Having excessively bright and blue headlights shined in your eyes harms your night vision and vision of anything not illuminated, which would exacerbate the seeming inferiority of other lights. In a narrow road during a rainstorm, driving speed should be significantly decreased to a level of safety - speed limits are not speed minimums.
There are all manner of health conditions that can occur that have little to do with your own healthy living, and don't incapacitate you or make life not worth living, but will cripple you financially.
You might end up with Crohn's or all manner of autoimmune conditions where patented biologics easily costs north of $100k US a year just in medication, but your quality of life if you find a medication that works is not particularly degraded from the average person.
CrossFit will not prevent you from getting into that situation, and I think it would be a vast overreaction to commit suicide in response to such a diagnosis.
When we moved to Canada from the UK in 2010 there was no real way to access BBC content in a timely manner. My dad learned how to use a VPN and Handbrake to rip BBC iPlayer content and encode it for use on an Apple TV.
You had to do this if you wanted to access the content. The market did not provide any alternative.
Nowadays BBC have a BritBox subscription service. As someone in this middle space, my dad promptly bought a subscription and probably has never fired up Handbrake since.
I don't see what advantage any company gets from choosing to build products that enable personal data ownership. I say this as someone working on a venture with these sorts of design aims, it feels like pushing a boulder uphill often.
The business model of cloud service providers makes a lot of sense- we have a system which stores and operates on your data, you pay some rental fee for us to store it and operate on it, easy peasy. The cost is related to both the utility of the operations the operator performs (to both the operator and the user) and the amount of data the user stores.
Fundamentally this is how everything from Dropbox to Facebook is governed- Dropbox does not devise much utility per GB and users store a lot, so you rent per GB, but at Facebook, they don't store lots of your stuff, and on the data side maybe you don't get much value from it as it's a cesspit, but the data is valuable to Facebook to sell ads, etc, so they can provide the service for free.
Importantly, you don't need to improve the product to continue extracting this rent, because the product you are selling is not Dropbox v4, Facebook v2.3, rather you are selling ongoing access to the rental.
As soon as you introduce even simply a federated system where a few corporate operators are involved, it becomes very hard to justify extracting rent there as the network designer, as the operators are taking on the cost of actually storing the data. You have to really be iterating on the core product to use a SaaS business model here. Some things simply don't need a v4, does Dropbox really need that much iteration?
Meanwhile as the system designer, life has become a lot more complex for you. Suddenly you cannot push unilateral sweeping changes to APIs, you need to version things in a way that is compatible between, say, one university updating their system but not the other. Since your users are a few large operators rather than millions of individuals, you lose the network effect advantage of being able to screw over a few users for the "greater good", since if you irritate one corporate client, you lose a lot of your install base. Why would you voluntarily choose this harder path as a company?
Things get even worse as you increase the level of decentralization. The reality is users expect the polished experience that the rental companies can give you; they want their data always accessible so that their friend can see the pic they shared without needing to keep their own computers running, they want the "like counter" to go up without their personal node subscribing to messages from other nodes, etc. The only users that will accept a worse experience are people who have are motivated by their philosophy re: personal data ownership, and this crowd will want a FOSS solution, so you can say goodbye to charging them for Dropbox v4, they are simply not interested if you're not giving them the source code for free. (I suspect this is where the author sits, but fundamentally I don't think it will get mass appeal, most people simply do not care about data ownership above something that "just works".)
So now you are dealing with problems like dynamic generation of redundant data and fault- and Byzantine-tolerant consensus algorithms so that your system can maintain function even when the user turns their computer off, and you have to deal with wrapped-key cryptography so that the redundant data can be split across all these user nodes without you worrying that an unauthorized user can read it, and then you have issues like how do you deal with nodes that are too slow to process updates (perhaps some user data needs to be stored in this conflict-free replicated datatype you devise), and eventually you go through all of this to... create a system that is less monetizable than the rental model, because you can't extract that rent for ongoing data storage, and we know users are not interested in actually paying for software.
I don't think Framework will be able to compete on efficiency with their design philosophy.
The NVMe disk is swappable, which means it has its own controller which manages power management itself. I did my research to pick an efficient SSD and ended up with a Lexar NM790. It tops Tom's efficiency charts and comes in third place for lowest idle power consumption [0]. This is still ~0.8W at idle. On a 60Wh battery an idling drive alone will kill the battery in 3 days.
Now technically there is the APST (Autonomous Power State Transition) feature in the NVMe specification. Is there some lower APST power state that can get the power draw down? Potentially, but that is a feature well beyond the purview of any SSD reviews I have seen, so I don't know- does this drive have reliable and well-implemented APST state support? How does this interact with the platform-specific sleep state implementation, which presumably wakes the disk sometimes to do some Modern Standby features- how often is it spending time in that 0.8W state versus lower? This can vary between board rev or BIOS version certainly. Beyond the actual drive configuration and ACPI interaction, there is also kernel interaction. Do certain drives behave poorly with Linux? Etc etc.
On the RAM side of things, they are using DDR5 and not LPDDR5. There is a lower voltage on LPPDR5 which is a constant inefficiency, but also LPDDR5 has dynamic voltage scaling and dynamic frequency scaling. There is also technically some voltage drop across the SODIMM connector which you don't need to contend with when you solder RAM, which would be a constant source of loss, but I am not sure how significant that is.
Beyond this you have different behaviour for every model of RAM. This post on the Framework forum shows the user could get 7.82 days of suspend time with the HMCG66MEBSA092N DDR5-4800MHz 16GB kit whereas only 2.25 days with the CT2K48G56C46S5 DDR5-5600MHz 96GB kit [1]. Consider that there are effectively infinite combinations of memory people can run, and even inside a model series, vendors can swap their chip providers, etc. Which kits give the best battery endurance? I can't tell you.
Now someone could certainly embark on a long adventure to test different drives, RAM kits, and measure their performance, recommend tunables for the Linux kernel you want to set for each particular set of hardware, etc. But this is effectively what Apple is doing for you with the MacBook. They are choosing their memory supplier, their flash supplier, and integrating as much as possible into their SoC with presumably an entire team focused on extracting the most efficient behaviour out of both.
Consider this same thing extends to display behaviour (beyond VRR support, which I believe Framework has now, you also have local dimming behaviour to tune on the MBP), wireless behaviour, all sorts of embedded controllers that Apple can wrap inside the SoC that I probably wouldn't think of... I don't see how a modular system like Framework can achieve anything close to the idle efficiency of a MacBook.
The case is part of the utilitarianism. I need to attach my phone to a bike mount. I use a Peak Design case that has a locking attachment point in the centre to securely fasten the phone onto the handlebars.
I would gladly ditch the case if Apple had a strong mounting system integrated into the phone (MagSafe has nowhere near the resistance to shear forces sufficient to hold a phone over bumps on a bike.)
I suppose I am looking for the phone equivalent of a camera thumbscrew mount. If Apple iterated on MagSafe to include an actual mechanical fixture as part of the attachment, I would buy that phone right away so I can avoid using these crappy pieces of rubber/plastic that degrade so much more quickly in appearance than the phone frame rails.
We could potentially see one-time-purchase model checkpoints, where users pay to get a particular version for offline use, and future development is gated behind paying again- but certainly the issue of “some level of AI is good enough for most users” might hurt the infinite growth dreams of VCs
It has a diving board trackpad, significantly worse speakers, no zonal dimming on the display (comparing to MacBook Pro, which higher end specs of the Framework cost as much as), general poor body rigidity, an aggressive fan curve that ramps up audibly on short loads (the Air doesn't even have a fan and the Pro can handle a couple mins of all-core 100% load without becoming audible), etc etc.
As much as I dislike Apple's business practices it's undeniable that other vendors are generally selling significantly cheaper feeling devices at the same price point. These are not niche things, you feel the cheapness on the Framework with every touchpad click, short bursty CPU task, HDR video, audio playback, heck even picking it up off the desk.