Exactly... Were they exflitrating files open in notepad++ , or was notepad++ installing additional malware for system wide access? What was the end goal?
Yes work is the means, the means to earn an income. Do you live in a country that has a big enough social safety net that you trust it to provide you the necessary income and healthcare so that you can just paint and play chess all day? I certainly don't... I live in the U.S.A :-/
Am I the only one who gets amazing performance from Mesh wifi (only one AP is connected to Ethernet) and have absolutely no need to run Ethernet around the house ....or use old telephone wires?
Maybe they used AI to make this ? But really though I hope they didn't and did some of designing themselves... I'm worried we are approaching a world where we never get new human designs just regurgitated designs from pre 2025.
I used AI sparingly actually. Mostly just some help for Ruby gem architecture and how to approach swapping themes on the fly otherwise all me. I'm a product designer by day so this stuff I do constantly.
For those who weren't aware: Verizon got a new CEO late last year and laid off 15% of the workforce (15,000 people). This included people working in network, IT and cyber security.
15% seems like the magic number. It seems like many corporations layoff approximately that fraction of their workforce; it's hard to believe it's coincidence.
Like all the doom and gloom after the Twitter layoffs predicting the site would implode and go permanently offline "within a month" which...never happened.
It's also ironic in the sense it implies the indignant people were so bad at their jobs they designed and built a system so fragile it would collapse without constant intervention from thousands of individuals.
You do realize it's possible for an organization to be overstaffed?
This is unrealistic and seems to be biased by some kind of broad un-focused hostility. Yes, maybe they were overstaffed. But it's reasonable to suspect that leadership overcut, given the current climate and the number being 15,000. Your characterization of Twitter predictions relies on cherry-picking and ignores the actual impacts, and there's no evidence that the system goes down without "constant" intervention from "thousands". Your tone also implies that large, complex systems, even if designed well, don't normally require a lot of maintenance from many people.
>Your tone also implies that large, complex systems, even if designed well, don't normally require a lot of maintenance from many people.
That's correct.
In the case of Twitter, it was disclosed that many of their systems were running out of date EOL software, to the point of being a security liability, which raises the question: if the systems weren't being maintained, wtf were all those people doing? Taste-testing the free food and cappuccinos?
> many of their systems were running out of date EOL software, to the point of being a security liability
This is more likely a management problem rather than a staffing problem. Lower level management knows about these kind of things but often they are not incentivized to make them a priority due to a culture focused on growth and “winning”.
Verizon is a traditional for-profit telco. Not some VC funded startup trying to hit a burn rate. Very unlikely they were overstaffed by 15k, sounds more like overzealous cost-cutting to hit a quarterly target.
There were issues and outages for weeks after the layoffs though. Many people also believe its overrun with far more bots than when it had more robust content moderation tools and teams.
Also things break. Vulnerabilities come along that need to be carefully patched and deployed. Tools and packages get depreciated. Updates can be done to save compute, and money. Things don't just hum along with zero intervention by no one for years and years.
Real-time multi-directional communications over massive geographic areas with tens of thousands of physical cell sites connected to ~140M devices vs... public text messages with media.
I realize your point, but its fair to say maintaining a nationwide physical wireless infrastructure may not be the same as hosting tweets, particularly when outages strike.
If you’ve got 100k people to run something that should run essentially on autopilot, you’ve got much deeper problems where merely laying off selected chunks of people will no longer help. The whole company is rotten and the only way is to start from scratch and not make the mistakes that led you to accumulate 100k people.
I can't even begin to imagine what those 100k people actually do. For starters, none of the telcos actually develop their own equipment - they buy pre-made from vendors like Ericsson. Often that includes ongoing maintenance too. The only "engineering" is building the back-office and customer-facing UIs, and even that is often outsourced (as a rule of thumb, if something can be outsourced, telcos will do it: https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/5g-elephant-in-the-room/).
Customer service might be part of that number (assuming that too isn't outsourced), but even then 100k feels extreme.
10k is ok although leaning on the more bloated side. But 100k?
It's well known that big tech companies are overstaffed. You probably can't build Dropbox in a weekend starting from scratch, but a smaller scale cloud-based storage solution can be deployed very quickly if you start from existing open source components. And a small team of experienced web devs can certainly build a cloud storage thing in a matter of weeks from scratch too.
I feel like vzw abandoned sane things like otp for k8s ai and blockchain ( or whatever nonsense tech goes here ). otp was probably deemed antiquated and too hard to maintain.
Almost; you need maintenance and monitoring but that doesn't take anywhere near 100k people - assuming they even use their own headcount for this instead of just outsourcing maintenance to their equipment vendor.
Big Tech companies operate much more complex systems (for starters, they actually build greenfield stuff instead of buying ready-made equipment from a vendor and plugging it in) and have way less headcount.
You're building new cell towers, managing countless failed backhual links (thanks to fiber's natural enemy, the backhoe), working with whatever obscure bugs your MVNOs have managed to uncover, certifying new cell phone designs, and still working on upgrading everything to 5G while simultaneously planning for 6G (keeping in mind that the 5G network architecture looks radically different than the LTE architecture). Much of that work is necessarily physically distributed across the entire country.
Not to mention dealing with end-user sales and support, which unfortunately often needs physical stores.
I'm not going to say whether 100k is too many, but there's a lot more involved here than just maintenance and monitoring - especially if you want your network capacity to keep up with growing demand.
ChatGPT can very well be an upgrade compared to the "engineering" capability of a lot of telcos (they have very little, are hell-bent on outsourcing as much as possible and are even proud of that). But don't take it from me, here's a more reliable source: https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/5g-elephant-in-the-room/
Obviously, you know exactly how to run a major telecomm operation ten times as efficiently as the dominant operator in the most prosperous nation on earth — you are wasting your skills and should absolutely be given funding to disrupt them and make Billions!! What is holding you back from joining the Oligarchs?
Have you considered that the inefficiency is a feature and provides cushy jobs for a lot of people and subcontractors? But yes, a modern telco can absolutely be run more efficiently if you operate it like a tech company and don't have to deal with decades of legacy sludge (whether bloated headcounts or heterogenous legacy infrastructure you have to support).
The problem is that this is a culture problem and once a company is ossified it is really hard to enact such change from the inside even if you wanted to because everyone enjoys the status quo (and who doesn't wouldn't be there to begin with).
Another example: have you seen the UK & EU banking scene and the boom of fintech and "neobanks" around 2017 like Revolut, Monzo, Starling, N26, etc? They managed to build from scratch on relatively shoestring budgets their own implementation of a consumer bank, something that their legacy competitors still can't replicate despite having way more budget and resources.
Unfortunately, the telco world is an oligopoly and they don't like new entrants (banking in the UK was actually a much more level playing field in comparison), so we can never actually see an experiment that proves or disproves my theory.
OK, have you considered that if inefficiency is a key feature and provides cushy jobs for a lot of people and subcontractors, that 1) there would be a low level of average competence in management as well as the workforce, 2) layoffs would have included "buyouts" and RTO mandates that drive away the most competent first so further reduce the average competence, so 3) the layoffs reduction in both aggregate competence and manpower would have been a significant cause of this outage, which is still happening?
I also note you kind of glossed over the 'legacy sludge' technologies that telcos must support — that likely takes a lot of manpower, making it very difficult for them to get to the 0.1x staffing level
The problem with being a nationwide ISP - and Verizon runs mobile phones, fiber and all kinds of other stuff - is that you need lots of hands across the country. A lot of stuff can be done remotely and with automation, but often enough you still need actual physical hands on site, and you can't just say "eh, we'll come around tomorrow, we can't make it there faster".
Also 'Verizon' is not really one company. It is 2. Telco and wireless. Each of those is a mashup of dozens of other phone companies VZ gobbled up over the years. With tech stacks going back decades. At one point while I worked there about 10 years ago they were running the 56k dialup for AOL. They also run a decent amount of stores. They are not going to automate a retail store in the same way you would amazon. You have to have people standing there. Then there is the "i need to talk to someone about why my phone keeps doing weird things" helpdesks/servicedesks. Then the line workers like you point out. Plus the backend people who might be able to work from home. But only if they are not in a secure area working (they have lots of that). That 15k of people was probably the result of several big projects that were scaling up but didnt work out. They have all sorts of projects to try to 'monetize the last mile they own'. Almost all fail.
Are amazon stores automated? I have Amazon fresh store next to me, they have the smart grocery carts that no one uses because they are overly finicky. They have same number of employees as other grocery stores.
That was my point I think I said it badly. A physical store takes people on site to run it. Even amazon with its online store has an army of people running the behind the scenes things. Most things are not automated by code. VZ is not much different. When I worked there they had well over 5000 locations worldwide that were staffed by people. They reduced it at that time. Hence me no longer working there. But sounds like they put it back and then some. Their core business is probably small. But they have huge initiatives they try to do. They do not want to be the commodity data line company. But most of their stuff just doesnt stick well. They think in terms of 'number of lines sold' instead of 'number of customers satisfied'.
That only works if they aren't U.S citizens... Which if they're working for the gov means they are. This administration is creative they will find other more 'legal' ways for retribution so the punishment sticks.
But as an outsider, its really not normal for agents of the state to detain people without legal basis. much less deliberatly make sure they can't be found. (citizen or not.)
You as a US citizen are not required to carry ID, so being arrested on the spot for not having proof of citizenship is grossly authoritarian.
There are quite a few examples where they did detain US citizens, even claiming that the papers they had weren't good enough.
The president has also multiple times said that he will strip people of citizenship. Yes, it's not exactly legal but they're doing illegal shit all the time and nobody's stopping them.
Nah, ICE is snatching and robbing US citizens too, even when they have ID on them. My (US citizen) friend got taken last month and driven hundreds of miles to another state simply for speaking spanish in public.
This clearly struck a nerve. What I was trying to say is I doubt they will use ICE for retribution here... My bet is they will use the FBI and simply arrest the sources. I'm aware ICE has detained U.S citizens and also killed citizens on the street.
This would only be true if ICE cared to obey the law, which they do not. They are not observing even the most basic facsimile of due process or probable cause. Protesting them is being treated as grounds for brutalization or arrest. They are actively flaunting their contempt for the Constitution while "conservatives" cheer from the sidelines.
Nonsense. You are seriously mistaken if you think mere legality will stop them.
This regime has already illegally stopped, assaulted, arested, jailed, and/or deported multiple US citizens. They now stop people and demand they show citizenship papers, and the AsstDirFBI has said people must carry proof of citizenship at all times, and if not, ICE are free to abuse you under the presumption you are an illegal.
We are already under a "May I see your papers, please?" Nazi-like system.
Except without the superficial politeness of the "May..." and "...Please" and seeing the face of your accusers who hide behind masks.
Quite an interesting phenomena though, how affiliations color some unarguable facts. Many clearly believe that ICE agents are doing the right thing, they got what they voted for.
