As an ex-programmer, now bicycle mechanic working mostly on e-bikes I'd like to add a few things:
People love ebikes not because of barely having to pedal, but because they can reach places with the bicycles that are out of their reach with a regular bike. It can be long weekend rides for some, but it can also be living/working on a hill. It's like owning a horse in olden times when all you had before were your own two legs.
No idea what the author means with "lacking a Toyota Corolla equivalent". (E-)Bikes come in wide range of price and range, often from the same manufacturer. It's the components that dictate the final price, barely the frame, motor or battery where less choice exists than with the other components.
Drive by wire will be exotic for a long time, I can see it taking over certain niches like recumbent bike where you have an extremely long drive train. Everybody else will run on cheap mechanical drive trains for a long time to come.
Never ever will we see electronic or even wireless braking, it's just madness and illegal everywhere. We will though see ABS from Bosch soon, not sure if that's such a good idea or even necessary at the low speeds of a <20mph ebike.
>> Most bikes are sold as toys or as overcomplicated hobbyist contraptions.
This is probably the US-centric view, but with a certain threshold of cyclists the wide middle of bike sales is practical bikes for short rides in the city with a hub dynamo a basket or rack for you shopping. Certainly not toys or sporty bikes.
The author shortly mentions removing batteries as optional, I must insist that removing and replacing a battery is a must-have to ensure the bike to be usable for a long time as many decent bikes do get ridden for 10, 20 or even 30 years.
> People love ebikes not because of barely having to pedal, but because they can reach places with the bicycles that are out of their reach with a regular bike. It can be long weekend rides for some, but it can also be living/working on a hill.
Yes! That's what drove me towards the ebike. I live on top of a 10% slope and using a regular bike was simply impossible (for me). Having an ebike changed my life completely. I now never use my motorbike anymore (at all) and the car, extremely rarely.
Even without steep hills, I bike daily but I can sense when I'm reaching exhaustion and distance limits. Having a bit of backup energy to stay in the "fun" zone wouldn't be bad, so any time you are low, or you need to ensure 20mph to get quickly to a spot .. it won't cause you harm.
"The Toyota Corolla is by far the best-selling model of car ever made, with close to 50 million units sold since its launch in 1966."
"a Toyota Corolla equivalent" implies to me a budget-friendly bike with impeccable build-quality, that appeals to both the mainstream & the hacker/modder/racer types.
Perhaps the author is asking at least one top e-bike manufacturer to standardize on just a couple models, and focus on making them the best bang for buck.
It's absolutely possible, consumers just have to be willing to pay more.
The situation with 'cheap' bikes is the same as it was almost 20 years ago when I worked at a shop; If you spend less than X$ on a bike, it's almost certain to require repairs down the road and there's a good chance (i.e. if it's a 'full suspension' cheapie) you won't even be able to find the parts to do it.
If you spend more than X$ (while still using common sense and realizing cheapies exist at higher dollar amounts,) you're probably going to get something between a Corolla and an Elantra. (Elantras -have- gotten better over the years and do last -longer, but do often need more TLC and perhaps wear a bit harder.)
Many bike shops, at least the ones in seasonal parts of the US barely make money on their cheapest bikes (When you factor in free tune ups, etc,) and will at best make money on accessories.
The shop I worked at, sometimes we'd take someones broken wal-mart bike on a trade-in for one of our base models. Nine times out of ten though we would just part out what was good after a month or so (cool-off in case the bike was hot, but I never recalled seeing a hot wal-mart bike, let alone a broken one.)
I've dabbled in vintage/nicer bikes and used to think it was snobism when people on the forums described bikes from walmart etc. as BSOs. Then I owned a few bike-shaped objects and tried to fix/update them and realized they were just a few steps removed from junk to begin with.
It's sad that you have to get up into the few hundred dollar range to get a usable bike, because around here that's actual (very used) corolla money. I don't want to have to be an enthusiast (and spend enthusiast money) to get a bike I can reliably commute on.
From my time having a hybrid, removable battery is important just day to day maintenance as well, often times bike storage and convenient charging are not in the same place. Say, the bike parking in an apartment complex and your flat on the 3rd story.
I don't see why wireless braking is impossible. Presumably a system could be contrived that is just as reliable as mechanical (/hydraulic) brakes, i.e. 99.99?%. It could, for example, detect failure (loss of connectivity with lever), warn, and slowly start braking automatically. OTOH if all your hydro fluid leaks out (not likely but not impossible) or your cable snaps there's no official warning system in place or way to recover if you do notice.
Realistically the most common form of total brake failure, I reckon, is when the pads overheat or simply wear out. The most common braking mistake would be over-application of the front brake. The most common cause of diminished performance is a poorly adjusted setup. I feel like smart electronic brakes could help improve all of these problems, although I guess it's possible to have smart electronic brakes that use a long cable as a "button" so what it really comes down to is whether you can make a wifi system more reliable than a metal cable or mineral oil hose.
I don't think it's impossible, but to me it's a solution that introduces more problems then it solves.
First off, you'd need to either have a a battery to the brake lever. If you're going to power it off the main battery, you're going to have to run a wire to then, and if you're routing 2, then you may as well route another 2 for signalling. Otherwise you're throwing out the main advantage of wireless. But that means now you've got an additional battery to monitor.
Second is that the comms systems need to have pretty heavy duty filtering and need to do it fast. 100 milliseconds delay in signalling means at 30kph you're going to add almost a meter of stopping distance. That's a lot of processing power and a lot of power consumption to ensure the near microsecond performance that you're going to get with hydraulic systems.
Third is the issue of tying your brakes to an electrical system. When your main battery dies, that more or less means that you have no brakes whatsoever.
Fourth is that now your components now also have to go through FCC certification, as does any piece of equipment that communicates on radio frequencies. Further increasing cost.
And you throw out all the advantages of hydraulic brakes; no power to use, redundancy between front and rear in the event one fails, ease of maintenance for hydraulic brakes, being able to feel the behavior of the brakes under your fingers, etc, easy to notice if there is a problem (leaks primarily will show up as decreasing fluid in the reservoir).
Honestly IMO it doesn't really seem worth the tradeoffs.
Some sort of energy capture loading a supercapacitor to power the brakes might be feasible, with a small battery backup. You don't need a lot of power storage if you can reliably keep the capacitor full during use. An esp32 has way more than enough clockspeed to keep the reaction speed under 10ms.
To me, there's a more complex issue, which is the braking feedback mechanism. You can't just have off/on - you need a gradient, and that needs to be communicated to the rider by feel. The same feel has to be perceived across every braking context, or it won't be predictable and people will crash.
Any sort of ABS or smart brake algorithm has to predictably augment the human control feedback and seamlessly integrate with motor controls.
Using nfmi would be preferable to wifi or bt, to reduce the possibility of interference.
Lastly, your system needs to fail gracefully. If the controller or mechanics of a brake fails, the motor controllers have to be aware of it, and limit speed or go into a limp-home mode.
So if you have a siloed power store, secure and reliable wireless networking, human compatible controls and brake behaviors, and graceful failure mode, and at least one layer of redundancy, you could have a feasible braking system.
Since brakes are almost always conveniently close to the frame, though, in not sure that wireless buys you anything compared to wired. Electronic braking has most of the same problems regardless of wireless, and wireless doesn't simplify or improve any problems (that I can think of? ) Maybe isolating each brake from the drive controller is desirable for reliability?
So with all that complexity, using regular old hand brakes seems like the best solution. Even if you want smarter braking, using a system that works with hand brakes is probably better than a wireless or purely electronic overhaul.
The sensorial feedback using analog hand brakes is the peak of UI - interfering with it requires some advantage that exceeds the loss of feedback and reliability.
I can see wireless controls allowing for novel form factors where brake cabling isn't possible or becomes complicated, but for most regular bikes, it seems unnecessary.
>Since brakes are almost always conveniently close to the frame, though, in not sure that wireless buys you anything compared to wired. Electronic braking has most of the same problems regardless of wireless, and wireless doesn't simplify or improve any problems (that I can think of? ) Maybe isolating each brake from the drive controller is desirable for reliability?
Potentially (and I say this with skepticism) it could simplify the hydraulic lines since if it's full brake by wire then you could only run one system to control the master cylinder rather then the multiple required for ABS. Then you could run something like an armored ethernet cable to the brake lever itself (just using armored ethernet as an example, I've got no idea if it's a good idea or not). Assuming you've got some mechanism to sense what's going on in the hydraulic lines and transmit it back to the to the lever and the hands of the rider, it means that potentially that brake feel can be adjusted on the fly.
That said, I don't really view it as a big enough advantage to loose ability to control the brakes in a loss of power situation.
>I can see wireless controls allowing for novel form factors where brake cabling isn't possible or becomes complicated, but for most regular bikes, it seems unnecessary.
That's really debatable. Mostly because even if you can move your brake lever where ever, it still needs to be within reach of your hands while on the bike's handle bars, and that inherently limits it's placement to where your hands are near. Maybe if you moved the controller to a glove on the hand itself, but then you'd have to think about preventing inadvertent activation on whatever glove you're wearing. And I really doubt anyone's silly enough to think that we should use an app on your smartphone to control your brakes.
I wouldn't rule out a cloud based brake app with some of the idiocy being funded, lately.
Even motorized roller skates and skate boards use wired brakes and throttling, but a tricycle form factor or two person bike might benefit from wireless brakes.
And what happens when you run out of power mid ride? Or you get some failure that causes intermittent cut out (corrosion on the connectors, etc)? You've more or less turned your bike into a 30kg dead weight that happens to have the shape of a bicycle and have to carry it the rest of the way vs just pushing it. Or worse, a bike that brakes on it's own without warning.
Like I said, what is the real advantage here trying to go wireless here that makes it worth the cost of loosing advantages of a mechanical or hydraulic system? I could maybe see some advantage of a full brake by wire system over mechanical or hydraulic, but wireless? The weight savings aren't that significant.
As a traditional cyclist, 4 9s isn’t close to reliable enough to trust. You need a lot of equipment faith when bombing down a mountain road at 30+ mph.
Mechanical & hydro brakes tend to fail gracefully… mechanical wires will usually break a couple threads at a time (you feel this when pulling the lever), allowing riders to come to a stop well before total failure (severed cable). Similarly, you can repeatedly “pump” the levers of a leaky hydro brake to increase stopping power.
Plenty of electric scooters have no mechanical brakes and only electric braking on one hub. But since an extra couple feet of stopping power can be a life or death feature, you definitely want breaking on both tires. Even assuming no reliability issues with the electric breaks (hello sudden rain storm), mechanical is a cheap and weight efficient way of adding braking to the second hub.
In plenty places (i.e. the EU), assist-bikes are also a different legal category from ones that are purely electric, with no drive-train from the pedals.
>"People love ebikes not because of barely having to pedal, but because they can reach places with the bicycles that are out of their reach with a regular bike. "
I did rides up to 180km long on regular bike without much problem. The reason I got eBike now is that while I have enough physical strength over the years my knees stopped liking sudden accelerations and steep heels. Ebike takes care of that part just fine. With ebike I still have proper fitness level, come back from my rides with the battery almost full and my knees intact ;) Sure I could do with wide gear range but it is just not the same. Much more fun on ebike.
Thinking on this, ebikes probably make the roads safer. Bicyclist would be more likely to come to a full stop. In traffic, they would be able to accelerate back up to proper speed after red lights.
It is that speed from a full stop that is actually more dangerous because motorists don't expect it and will attempt to cross before you thinking there is enough time to do so due to cyclists being slow.
> No idea what the author means with "lacking a Toyota Corolla equivalent".
An older metaphor for the same might be "The Model T Ford" of $product.
As in, the influential model that brought the product to the masses, because it was more affordable, had good reliability and sold in huge volume: "The Ford Model T Is generally regarded as the first affordable automobile, which made car travel available to middle-class Americans. The relatively low price ... The Ford Model T was named the most influential car of the 20th century"
The pay is terrible, but the path to my own workshop is much easier than running a programming company, who knows. To be brutally honest, programming was a love for 20 years but I've burnt out and looking back, maybe the pay was unreasonable high in the first place and like for many: at the end of the month the money was all gone.
Me too, as my local bikeshop tried to hire me several times but the difference in pay made it impossible for me although the career change in general would be quite welcome.
I’ve managed a career transition to lower pay. A big reason I am able to do it is I don’t own a home, I don’t have kids, and I’m not married. I’m doing what I want though! Which for me is open source robotics.
>We will though see ABS from Bosch soon, not sure if that's such a good idea or even necessary at the low speeds of a <20mph ebike
It might have saved me a broken arm. I had not long had my European spec e-bike and forgot the brakes were reversed when I arrived at a damp corner. I touched what I thought was the rear brake and went straight down.
I'm curious what is the cheapest decent ebike you can get is. I think you hint that $500 is possible, which would be awesome, curious if you have recommendations.
I bought my current bike from Walmart for about $150, and would be interested in updating to an ebike if they were in the $500 range.
Just a note that right now might be a rotten time to try figuring out bike pricing, because of the shortage. If you can wait for prices to come back down to earth, you might get a better indication.
Also, there are folks who expect a flood of used bikes to hit the market. As with conventional bikes, the pricing of cheap bikes is affected by the pricing and availability of used bikes. A new bike has to be priced cheaper than repairing an old one.
Actually just bought this one. It's obviously made to a price, but quite rideable and has gotten me out riding again and a little more excited to exercise.
Walmart sells an ebike for $400. Theres definitely some corners cut to hit that price point, but it works perfectly fine and the battery locks into the frame which also houses the controller/wiring. It's definitely Wal-Mart quality, but it's less than even the price of a conversion kit with battery.
Edit* full disclosure: I owned one of these and returned it because I decided I wanted something a bit more high performance, but only because I lucked into a free Bosch battery pack.
I think this is referring to reliability and cost together. Although I would point the author at the Priority Current. That thing will probably ride until the wheels fall off. Belt drive and internally geared with a bottom bracket motor.
I don’t get it what an ebike really brings that wasn’t already available in a moped or scooter? At least for me the #1 reason I don’t bike much is that there is no way to get places safely. Sharing the road with cars is quite risky while not quite motor cycle risky still very high risk that’s simply not worth it.
Can't speak for everywhere but in Washington state almost anything sold as a scooter or moped in fact requires a full motorcycle endorsement, liability insurance, annual registration, etc. The cutoff for a motorcycle endorsement is a max 49cc motor or 2 brake horsepower, which excludes nearly everything sold as a scooter that I can find.
You are certainly right that in most of the US biking infrastructure is embarrassingly bad, hopefully if pedal-assist ebikes get more popular that will spur more investment in bike paths and separated infrastructure.
I see the appeal in using them to skirt regulations and travel in the bike only trails or to go into dnr lands or non motorized trails but they are also like 50-60lb bikes. Super heavy and not a lot of fun to just pedal without assistance.
As someone who did loads of mountain biking in high school, I like bicycles more than mopeds or scooters. It is hard for me to explain why, but I’d feel more comfortable going off road on a bicycle, it feels cooler, and it’s just what I’m used to.
I don't think it's fully appreciated that automotive brakes are highly engineered and evolve very slowly. And a car can absorb the weight penalty of a failsafe braking system. Also, two wheel electric braking would require two electric actuators.
> No idea what the author means with "lacking a Toyota Corolla equivalent". (E-)Bikes come in wide range of price and range, often from the same manufacturer. It's the components that dictate the final price, barely the frame, motor or battery where less choice exists than with the other components.
If I had to guess, It's that a lot of the US e-bikes seem to fall either into the category of being marketed to various existing known US rider segments. But those segments are people that care about the gear on the bike, they might care bout tweaking and playing with it, etc etc. Lets pretend those companies (like Specialized) are playing Buick and Lincoln in the E-Bike segment.
We also have all these really cheap e-bikes on Amazon. These are (at least, perception wise) typically playing in the 1990s PentaStar and 1990s Kia segment. In other words, they're cheaper, but there's this expectation that you'll have to fix things more often and there's definitely some annoying cheap-outs in places.
A Corolla e-bike, would basically be a boring piece of wonderbread. It would probably be best packaged as a 700c Wide tire hybrid or 26" with 1.5" city/gravel-worthy tires. It would have simple, reliable components. If it had shimano parts, I'd hope that most of them would have part numbers starting with a 3 (IIRC that would put it around Altus-ish level?) Double Wall rims (I don't think you'd even want to try otherwise on an american e-bike) and just say 'f it', go 36 spoke and 4 cross if you can manage.
In other words, Boring and reliable, marketed that way. Maybe it -does- exist but I haven't seen it yet in my searches (that's more or less what I'd want, frankly)
> We will though see ABS from Bosch soon, not sure if that's such a good idea or even necessary at the low speeds of a <20mph ebike.
If I had to guess, this is because lots of casual folks want disc brakes on a bike, but don't know how to use them properly, because unfortunately a lot of folks in this country remember trying to stop on their parent's Schwinns with worn out rubber, nearly frictionless chrome wheels, and turkey wing bar-levers; AKA their first reflex is to clench the brakes and they're very likely to endo.
Doesn't help that in the US we have a strange litigious relationship with Cycling, there have been some pretty interesting lawsuits over the decades due to safety complaints. Johnson v. Derby would be a specific one that comes to mind. The lawsuit that nearly bankrupted the shop I once worked at (effectively did cripple it to a slow death/change in ownership) is another.
> This is probably the US-centric view, but with a certain threshold of cyclists the wide middle of bike sales is practical bikes for short rides in the city with a hub dynamo a basket or rack for you shopping. Certainly not toys or sporty bikes.
Yeah, US Centric, somewhat because the majority our cities are designed around cars. This is why we talk a lot about things like 'food poverty,' because there are cities where the lack of a car makes it nearly impossible for folks to get food (Short of walking to the local 'convenience store' that charges markups and has limited selection.) Ironically, E-Bikes could help in some of these situations, but it still requires a bit of a paradigm shift.
Which is a shame. I got into riding in college, and I did at least as much riding for 'work/shopping/etc' as I did for pleasure. Heck of the thousands of miles my mountain bike has logged, probably 50 of it has been 'trails'. But I'm in a minority.
People love ebikes not because of barely having to pedal, but because they can reach places with the bicycles that are out of their reach with a regular bike. It can be long weekend rides for some, but it can also be living/working on a hill. It's like owning a horse in olden times when all you had before were your own two legs.
No idea what the author means with "lacking a Toyota Corolla equivalent". (E-)Bikes come in wide range of price and range, often from the same manufacturer. It's the components that dictate the final price, barely the frame, motor or battery where less choice exists than with the other components.
Drive by wire will be exotic for a long time, I can see it taking over certain niches like recumbent bike where you have an extremely long drive train. Everybody else will run on cheap mechanical drive trains for a long time to come.
Never ever will we see electronic or even wireless braking, it's just madness and illegal everywhere. We will though see ABS from Bosch soon, not sure if that's such a good idea or even necessary at the low speeds of a <20mph ebike.
>> Most bikes are sold as toys or as overcomplicated hobbyist contraptions.
This is probably the US-centric view, but with a certain threshold of cyclists the wide middle of bike sales is practical bikes for short rides in the city with a hub dynamo a basket or rack for you shopping. Certainly not toys or sporty bikes.
The author shortly mentions removing batteries as optional, I must insist that removing and replacing a battery is a must-have to ensure the bike to be usable for a long time as many decent bikes do get ridden for 10, 20 or even 30 years.