The fact that Israel is saying something doesn't mean it's a lie and neither does the fact that Al Jazeera said it. Notice I specifically did not say Israel was innocent in that, so it's very much not the Israeli "talking point". Some things are just bad and don't have any good or convenient solution.
You're repeating a false narrative of picking a side in a problematic situation where two zero sum players are trying to engage and escalate. I'm a liberal Israeli. I have friends in Gaza too. I don't want them hurt and I'm sure they don't want to hurt me. Unfortunately, we're both stuck in a situation where people frame this as a Palestinian vs. Israeli conflict. That's wrong. It's a conflict between two zero sum players who have been pumping each other up for 30 years and sabotaging repeated attempts for peace.
Al Jazeera is run by Qatar who also host Hamas. They are a very bad actor in many cases and in line with a zero sum player in this narrative.
The solution is simple. Stop dropping bombs on Palestinian children. Just because Hamas killed 1000 of your children does not mean you have to kill 20000 of Palestinians. 1000-20000 is not zero. The fact that you are not stopping bombing children makes you as evil as Hamas, if not worse.
> 695 Israeli civilians, 71 foreign nationals, and 373 security forces.[165] This data was published in December 2023, using social security data. There are additionally five people classed as missing, including four Israelis.[165] The deaths included 36 children, of whom 20 were under 15 years old and the youngest was a 10-month-old baby.
Notice that when you say "security forces" western people don't count them in the same way. We do. Israel has a draft law. These are 18 year old kids that were killed in a surprise attack and we see them in the same way as every civilian murdered.
This doesn't include people killed by rocket fire after the 7th or by attacks from Hezbollah.
This also ignores the intention, the severity and the cruelty. It ignores the fact that hostages (including women and babies) are still kept in Gaza.
Sure, are we going to ignore that more Palestinians has been killed till October last year, even without an official war declaration in Gaza and West Bank? There are more hostages including minors, taken by Israel, before and after the said incident.
This isn't a contest of volumes and it's a very false equivalency. Hamas attacked Israel knowing the cost in lives and chose to attack anyway because they don't value human life. Even that of their own people.
Israel takes prisoners not hostages and has due process albeit flawed. Everyone arrested is arrested due to something they did. Not taken out of their home or a party. Not raped and murdered. These are not civilians, they are typically criminals.
Minors taken by Israel are 16+ unless they did something serious. E.g. two teen girls stabbed a person who they thought was an elderly Jew. Was actually an old Palestinian guy. Obviously Hamas asked to release that murderer. Israel is asking for the release of innocent people while Hamas is asking for the release of mass murderers.
Sure. Whatever you say. It's really hard to tell who's lying and who isn't with all the misinformation and also the sheer volume of facts.
It's also hard to find the "good guys" because both sides did some pretty awful things. Which again muddies the waters.
But the thing is that you chose to sweep the deck and call everything I said a lie with no nuance or thought. This brings me back to a different debate I had with someone I think here... I mentioned that Israel has gay rights and one of the most advanced human rights laws, civil rights, religious freedom etc. It's essentially a super liberal country in most regards (our labor laws will make California blush).
On the flip side I mentioned gays get executed in Gaza and wife beating isn't a crime under Hamas law. Honor killings are normal occurrences (if you don't know what it is you should seriously read up about it). I was accused of "pink washing".
Pink washing is when a corporation tries to hide bad behavior with a sham gay gesture. Israel has been pro-gay for decades, pro women and human rights. That's not something tucked on.
But the accusation reminded me of you. It accused me of stating a bad verifiable fact about Hamas while saying something verifiably good about Israel. How dare I state such inconvenient facts to assault your sensitive preconceived notions of whose "good" and whose "bad" in this narrative. I've clearly gone too far.
All joking aside. Why do you think those are lies?
Why do you choose to not believe a flawed democracy over a terrorist organization that murdered people for decades?
A terrorist organization backed by an Iran, Russia block... A terrorist organization that is killing its own people. If any of these facts seem wrong to you, I suggest furthering your research on that. I think you were deeply mislead. Israel is very flawed and did indeed mistreat the Palestinians a lot (especially in the West bank) but you need nuance. Palestinians vary Hamas is evil, the Palestinian authority is "complicated". Israel is also nuanced, it has the worst government in its history right now, but that's an anomaly. It did have more liberal governments over the years.
Unfortunately, Hamas and lack of nuance from the west help strengthen the bad players within Israel and move it further to the right.
I can see how that can be misinterpreted, that was not my intention. This isn't about race. It's about their social structure and partially about the depth of religion in their society. Also, I think it's a current state. I believe there is hope but it would require a major social shift, for that you need to put external pressure on them to change.
Right now all their leaders and wishful leaders are current/former terrorists. To climb to the top you have to prove yourself as a mass murderer. That doesn't yield good leadership skills.
But that's only a part of it. The main problem is their Hamula (extended family) structure. Their social order is to a large part dictated by major families that place their allegiance with individual militia. This is problematic, a leader needs to instill fear in the families and yet gain enough support by promising favors for each. The result is deep, rooted, inescapable corruption that tanked the Palestinian authority. Hamas has also robbed billions from the people of Gaza.
This sort of environment doesn't allow for compromise. The people who get to the top will be literally murdered by these families if they compromise. Anyone who shows statesmanship and willingness to work is quickly kicked out of the way by this cast system.
Don't get me wrong, individual Palestinians do want a proper democracy. But they can't really have it because the power of these forces is too big.
