I really can't think of anything good to say about this keyboard. I've used keyboards like this, and I've damaged my body with them. You know what matters a lot more than a backlight? Ergonomic design. Get a Kinesis Advantage instead.
As someone who has suffered from RSI, my advice is to not fix a problem you don't have. I've been there, and it just cost me money.
In my case, I didn't need a curved keyboard or a split keyboard, those things ended up in the cupboard. I just had to get rid of the numpad to change my position from awkward to healthy. So, for me, this keyboard is actually interesting, the variant without the numpad that is.
Why does the numpad make your position awkward by its presence? Can't you just pretend it's not there? Every keyboard I've owned since the late 80s has had a numpad and I've hardly ever used it.
Oh never mind, I see your reply to the top post below now. Because it moves the mouse too far away.
It forced me to either move the keyboard too far to the left or the mouse too far the right, the former causing wrist pain in both hands, the latter causing pain in the right wrist.
So, what fixed my pain was the smaller keyboard, not the lack of a numpad. The numpad just happends to be a big, expendable chunk :)
One of the keyboards I got in order to fix this was a Microsoft ergonomic keyboard, which includes the numpad and is also wider than what I've used before. So getting an ergonomic keyboard actually made things worse in one case.
I am an Emacs user with both keys either side of Space bar mapped to Ctrl. And I use Ctrl with either hand using my thumbs bent inwards (or sometimes with my palms).
I very rarely use my mouse while working, and most of the time I stick to touchpad or trackpoint navigation when I need the mouse.
This is one of the reasons I absolutely love the trackpoint: it allows me to use a mouse without my fingers leaving the home row, and the buttons are conveniently placed where my thumb already is. I'm saddened that the trackpoint is a rarity on laptops these days, I hope Lenovo won't drop it as well.
FWIW, when I used focus more on networking rather than development, I always used the numpad for typing in IP addresses. I found it was much faster to use it rather than moving horizontally across the number keys, but YMMV of course. Disclaimer: have a DAS Model S at work and home...can't really do without it (at least when the alternative is a terrible laptop keyboard)
I switched my mouse over to the left side of my keyboard (despite being decidedly right-handed) to avoid the numberpad issue. In the end I still had to ditch straight keyboards to avoid RSI.
(I've since gotten a keyboard without a numberpad and switched back, but I can still use a left-handed mouse pretty well. It's one step below having a trackball as far as confusing people who try to use my computer goes. :P)
I usually use a thumb trackball, but once when my wrist pain got pretty bad I started using one of the ambidextrous trackballs with my left hand for a bit, it was actually pretty nice.
For a long time I used the Filco tenkeyless with Cherry MX brown key switches, together with an Evoluent vertical mouse. That particular combination was very good for my wrists.
Unfortunately, the Filco tenkeyless can be a bit tricky to find (and of course are not backlit).
I have one of these as well (majestouch tenkeyless). My girlfriend routinely threatens to throw it out the window (which would obviously be devastating), but I am holding on to it tightly. In my excitement I bought a version without key markings. In retrospect, this was kind of silly. Theoretically it was supposed to promote touch typing, and so consequently increase my speed. In reality, I don't really notice a difference, and it mostly just serves to deter friends and family from using my computer (probably both a positive and a negative outcome).
It's a "gaming" brand keyboard I guess but it's half the cost of a Filco and comes in 4 different switch types. I just got one, seems pretty nice, although I only use it for gaming and my MS Natural 4000 for typing. Though I wish MS would make a tenkeyless version of the Natural 4000, because I do dislike the extreme width (they're making a new wireless ergonomic keyboard that's tenkeyless but it has scissor switches and I don't really like switches with little travel - almost went crazy when they gave me an Apple thin keyboard during an internship, and I quickly went to their old computer parts storage and got an older Apple keyboard to avoid losing my mind).
I am a Filco 10 keyless and wouldn't go back. I find it crazy that we have this 5" of obligatory keyboard everywhere as through everyone really needs a specialised desk calculator. Its where the mouse is meant to go!
The only drawback I have found is some 3d modelling tools assume a keypad in their default settings. Obv. you can remap the keys but its not as natural and makes following tutorials harder. If I were to use these more I would consider purchasing an external keypad but not to permanently give up such prime desk real estate for it.
I read through that page and it doesn't seem to explain how it actually works. With only one roller how do you move the mouse up and down, left and right?
I was confused at first but I realized I was looking at the scroll wheel surrounded by mouse buttons. Cursor movement is done with the "bar" above the buttons/scroll wheel. Move left/right in a finite lateral motion or up/down in an infinite scroll motion.
Imagine a long rod. Slide a shorter pipe onto it. You move on the X-axis by sliding the pipe left/right on the rod. Move on the Y-axis by rolling the pipe. Click by pushing the entire contraption down.
I've been using the plain, MS Natural keyboards for over a decade; all the way back to when they had normal arrow key & home-cluster layouts. I buy one for every computer I use with any regularity, which turns out to be one at home and one at the office.
My biggest complaint is they're not super durable. A single spill of water will destroy the keyboard (I've gone through about 5 this way), and the buttons do wear out over time (my home keyboard's '1' key is wearing out).
As you say, a better built, mechanical MS Natural would be God's Own Keyboard.
I am also using[1] microsoft natural keyboard, because it is the best (for me) combination of ergonomic split-hand slightly skewed keyborad that has normal querty layout. BUT.. the quality of the kyeboard is terrible. I with it the MS Natural would get Cherry MX Clear keys and better wireless tranciever.
Is there actually any evidence ergonomic keyboards reduce risk of RSI? Last time I looked into it it seemed like marketing fluff with no actual studies that backed it up.
I don't know, but I hasten to point out that the Kinesis isn't one of those generic "ergonomic" keyboards. It's a very different shape. One of its best features is that the keys are vertically aligned in straight columns, so that you're not constantly exercising the muscles to move your fingers slightly to the left or right. It makes a huge difference.
If someone invented a magic laptop that had a built-in Kinesis keyboard but could still close up, I would spend ridiculous sums of money to own one.
FWIW I tried the Truly Ergonomic Keyboard, which is similar to the Kinesis in that it has the keys in straight columns, and I found no discernible benefit. In fact, I ended up going back to my MS Natural 4000 and returning the TEK because even after 60 days I couldn't get used to the layout (it's nice that they let you do that though!). I may have to try the Kinesis though, the curve seems better. TEK looked nice in theory but the flat style didn't really work for me.
Although this is subjective, the kinesis advantage keyboard has really helped me better deal with my RSI; it has clusters of keys under each thumb and is fully programmable so I am able to move problem keys around (for me pinky keys are quite uncomfortable).
For me shift, space, backspace, tab, win, ctrl, alt, esc and enter are all thumb operations.
However I wouldn't go as far as saying it has solved my RSI, but it is definitely part of the solution that allows me to program 40+ hours a week (more like 50-60, 40 hour week professional + hobby programming).
FWIW the other parts include regular exercise, alternating mouse hands and using a trackball on my 'off hand', and a keyboard-heavy system (vim, dwm, etc.).
RSI is a complex thing. Some people have pain that is fixed by uniquely shaped keyboards, others need to just switch ctrl and capslock, get rid of the numpad or whatever. I don't think there is such a thing as a keyboard that cures any kind of RSI. But I do think something super flexible like the Kinesis Freestyle comes close.
I love emacs, but I can definitely see how rms got RSI.
Like Jeff, I was not content with any of the available keyboards. I have two Kinesis Freestyles (the old one and the new one), and they are both great. But the halves only separate by 20", which is not enough to mount them on armrests.
So, I cut the separator cord one night, only to find that it contained twenty fine, individually shielded wires. At length, I reconnected them with an extension piece (three CAT-5 cables), first with breadboard (proof of concept), and eventually with soldering, heatshrink wrap, etc. I am NOT a hardware guy, and this took forever. But it was worth it.
Freestyle nitpicks: (1) The hardwired keys along the left (C-x, C-C, C-v, etc) are pointless and easy to hit by accident, yet hard to find on purpose. (2) "B" should be on both sides. (3) It would be nice if the two spacebars were distinguishable. I'd map one of them to Ctrl.
Mapping caps lock to ctrl is invaluable. (Except when you're on someone else's machine and you're constantly WRITING IN CAPS.)
Yes, and I tried using AutoHotKey to use spacebar as a modifier. But it's too hard to avoid conflict with "actual" spacebar usage.
You definitely have to be careful with your left pinky. I've started "palming" the corner control, when possible -- even for things like C-v and C-b where you can catch the other key with your thumb.
I've also tried key-chord-mode, with strong but uncommon pairs ("fj" "fk" "dk" "dj") set as a prefix for a custom map. The jury is still out on this, mostly because it's hard to change my habits.
I used a Kinesis Advantage for many months as my only keyboard, but did not recover from RSI until I got rid of it.
Now I use Logitech scissor-switch keyboards (the K750 and the K800). Oddly enough, even though it has the same basic scissor-switch design as the Logitech keyboards, I do very poorly with Apple keyboards (and I did use one exclusively for a few months).
I guess there's no single solution to RSI that works for every typist!
P.S. What really got me over my RSI is learning piano teacher Dorothy Taubman's technique for prevention of RSI.
I went through two K800s before giving up and getting a mechanical. The K800 is buggy and broken.
The first K800 I owned, the spacebar broke off within 2 hours of using it. I sent it back for a replacement. I was a lot easier, and cautious with the replacement, which ultimately hindered my typing ability.
There was some kind of key ghosting going on that disallowed me to type "ID" too fast. The D would always miss. I had to purposefully slow down when typing things like UserID, ProductID, things I type all day every day as a programmer. That was the last straw for me.
Just off the top of my head I count over $1000 worth of logitech stuff I own, but the K800 is the first product I would recommend against.
I am glad you wrote because I used the K800 for only 2 weeks. (I bought and returned a K800 because of a consideration that is relevant to only a tiny fraction of users.)
I have owned three K750s though. The K750 is a lot more likely to break than a good mechanical keyboard is, and the (silicone membranes in the) keyswitches get mushy a lot faster than mechanical keyswitches do, with the result that even though the acquisition cost is a half or a third of a good mechanical keyboard, the total cost of ownership is not any lower than with a mechanical keyboard, but I prefer them because their durability is within reason, they're very thin (short in the vertical dimension) and they're more "convenient" (specifically, they're wireless, and I can pick one up with one hand).
The tactile experience is almost as good as with a mechanical board. 90 or 95% as good, in my experience.
Buy if for the Ergonomics, keep it for the thumb modifier keys. I can't go back to a normal keyboard now. Having the modifier keys under your thumbs is just to damn nice.
I've been using a Microsoft Natural Ergonomic keyboard for a long time and it's relieved a lot of wrist pains I used to have. I'm a little tentative to switch to something without a palm rest and without being able to position my hands farther apart.
This looks pretty good, though. I've been looking for a new mechanical keyboard for a while but haven't found anything that quite fits yet. Would love to hear some reviews once this gets out there.
I'm the opposite. I used to use ergonomic keyboards, including a Kinesis keyboard many years ago. It never solved my RSI pain.
What did solve my RSI pain was simple: posture. The height of my desk/chair/keyboard/mouse/monitor were not in proper alignment. Once I properly adjusted all heights the pain went away in weeks. I also got a tenkeyless (Filco Majestouch 2) mechanical keyboard, which helped for its form factor.
The middle image is how I used to be. My fixed desk was too high (even with my chair at maximum height) and so my arm/wrist was bent up.
I then got a height-adjustable desk and a monitor stand, and I made my setup more like the top image. However, my monitor is quite a bit higher that what is shown in that first image. I look straight ahead and don't tilt my head down.
I love ergonomic keyboards too, but they're extremely specialized. A mass market keyboard needs to appeal to as many folks as possible, and using the "classic" standard keyboard layout is the best way to do that.
There is a tenkeyless option if that helps, and there is room at the front for a wrist rest that can be periodically replaced as it wears.
I've been using split keyboards for many years and my wrists have thanked me for it. I get weird looks and people have a hard time using them, but it's worth it.
...or a Goldtouch Adjustable Comfort keyboard for a slightly less eccentric layout. Even a Microsoft Comfort Curve keyboard will treat you better than the world's greatest straight keyboard.
I have the foot pedals. I never use them, because it is so convenient and comfortable to hit Ctrl/Alt with my thumbs. Maybe there are better keys to assign to my foot pedals, but I haven't really thought about it much.
I recently broke my arm and have been using foot pedals. I grabbed generic ones, and they help. I can't speak to the kinesis ones, they didn't seem to be easily programmable. The feel of the pedals I bought is horrible. Screwing them into a board with a carpet pad beneath helps a lot for organization.
My wrists seem ok, but my finger joints felt like they were developing arthritis, which is a common malady for typists. I bought a couple Leopolds (one with red switches, one brown), learned to type without bottoming out much, and it cleared right up.
I tried it and it didn't work for me. Hand size was wrong and the placement of the modifier keys was unintuitive. With my day-to-day usage, I couldn't come up with a mapping that fit my needs.
I agree that with small hands, reaching the number row of a Kinesis advantage can be a challenge (I use one for my RSI issues, and I'm right at the threshold of hand size)
I have trouble typing on an ergonomic keyboard, otherwise I'd probably use it.
Incidentally, after years of proper piano training I feel like I hold my wrists in such a way that if I mostly keep typing, I won't strain my wrists too hard...and be able to type constantly all day. I only get pain in the wrists when using a Trackpad, surprisingly enough.
I suppose that's true in a tacky arithmetic way. Shit keyboards are basically free. They also ruin your hands. So you have to prioritize a little. Having used the same Kinesis for six years I don't have a lot of sympathy for not being willing to shell out <$50/year for the most important part of the computer. In a discussion about someone trying to sell me a $150 dollar version of the free shit keyboard it seems even more disingenuous.
Yes, but people are reporting that the very expensive keyboards are not helping them. So, we are not solving a problem for $300 or whatever, we are taking a chance at solving a problem at $300. That's a different optimization problem, with a perhaps different solution.
If there is pain involved with one option, then it's logical to assume that time will change. When I do get wrist pain, it does cut into how I use my time.
Sure, but that would be assuming you personally are experiencing this pain. It goes back to what someone else in the thread said: Don't go looking for solutions if it isn't a problem you're experiencing.
